5 reasons why you should not enter 99designs

A few days ago, I published a post about crowdsourcing webs. Clients come to these webs with a project, and designers compete for a -non guaranteed- prize. I received many comments for and against these freelancing platforms. So I thought it would be interesting to examine these pro-crowdsourcing positions in depth.

First of all, I must admit that the heading of this post is a misunderstanding, since it wants to mean just the opposite of what it says. I’m totally against “free pitching. It’s not for fear (luckily I’m not affected by this market). I write this just because, as a designer myself, with a relative stable clientele, I feel responsible of the education of novel designers (that’s the reason for this blog), who come along looking forward to having success but too focused on short term. Just like I was 8 years ago.

If you joinĀ crowdsourcing sites, please read this post, and if you have some time, think it over. It’s not my intention to tell you off, I just want to offer some arguments that you maybe haven’t considered before. If you have and you are still positive that this is a good thing for your career, please comment your point of view for us.

1.- Are you a novel designer, so you need some experience and make your portfolio?

I can answer with another question: do you know any other job where people work for free to get some experience?

I can find it acceptable that if you have no experience, your salary should be lower than an experienced worker’s. But… working for free? If you have to do that, choose another job.

You can find many alternatives:

  • You can work for an non-governmental organization.
  • You can look for a job as a scholarship trainee.
  • You can sell stock designs, sell tutorials or work like guest blogger.
  • You can create your own blog and convert the traffic through advertising, while you promote your services.
  • You can work for friends and relatives.
  • You can work in personal projects or fictional clients.
  • Websites such as Upwork, where clients choose a designer according to their budget and their portfolio. It’s not a panacea, but at least there are some guarantees.
  • You can offer your services in blogs, art communities and forums at a reasonable price.

There are only 3 rules:

  1. Your salary (even if it’s not much) must be guaranteed.
  2. Your prior objective is to learn, both in commercial and technical levels.
  3. Making a good portfolio which contains quality work is the key of your future.

But… let’s suppose that the payment would be guaranteed in this contests. As we already commented in my previous post about 99designs, there are still many obstacles:

  • Unidirectional communication: the client speaks and the designer executes.
  • Communication is also poor: there’s not a good brief and feedback is limited and poor.
  • Revisions are cumulative, that means the project evolves basing on other designers entries, which can make you “inspire” in other people’s work.

Are you really learning good habits? The only positive thing I can extract from this is that you will have known the hell of labour market, and you’ll become stronger… If you survive. But I think this is an unnecessary evil, discouraging and not useful… even counterproductive, because of the bad habits you would acquire.

2.- Need to work?

Ok, in these sites there are plenty of clients, some of them with acceptable budgets. But your salary is not guaranteed, there are thousandsĀ of direct competitors (some of them without any moral principles) and the system doesn’t enable good quality results.

It’s like selling low quality fruit in a low quality macro-fruit-shop… I think it would be more intelligent to set up your own store far from that other one, and focus on the quality of your products. I mean, don’t you think it would be more intelligent to create a good quality portfolio and promote it yourself? If you’re a good professional and you offer good products, in a short time clients will knock on your door. Then you’ll be independent and you will set the rules of the game.

Otherwise, you’ll keep selling low quality fruit for your lifetime, you will depend on intermediaries and you will have the competence in your own home.

3.- Want quick and easy money?

Wow! 1.000US$ for a logotype I can make in 10 minutes!!!

Sorry my friend, you’ve chosen the wrong profession. In the design industry there’s nothing quick or easy. If you really want to have success you have to think in long term. You must improve your product and your service, you must promote your work, you must be a professional and then your work will be profitable, you’ll be able to choose who do you want to work for, and you will really enjoy your job.

Ok, let’s suppose you want quick and easy money. Is it really quick an easy? There are hundreds of designers and hundreds (even thousands) of entries. The chances of winning, even if your entry is the best one, are quite bad. Firstly, because of simple statistics, and secondly, because the client have the possibility, with a legitimate intention or not, of retiring his money and then there would be no winner of the contest.

Let’s pick the last 3 contest winners on 99designs.com and let’s check his conversion percentage:

Adisign09, Okydelarocha and Lene conversion rate. At best case the was paid 1 out of 10 projects, at worst case 1 out 50.

4.- Who is the one who loses out?

Crowdsourcing puts quantity before quality, they don’t promote clients’ education in design methodology. They think designers don’t deserve the guarantee of being paid. They offer low quality proposals, even when the clients have an acceptable budget… Designers without any methodology, not involved in the making of the brief, unfair competition, “free pitching” on principle, “quick” and “easy” money… The get-rich-quick culture.

The client loses, the designer loses… Who takes advantage then? As always, the intermediary, the organizer who earns his commission. Considering that 99designs generated last month 715.000US$, and they obtained a 15% benefits (forgetting the extra 39US$ for each registration), their income of the last month reaches the not inconsiderable amount of 107.000US$.

Do you really think this is beneficial to your career? Do you think it’s beneficial to the client? Think about it, do you really want to promote these values?

5.- Is it unethical, immoral or something?

I have to admit that I don’t turn to designers code of ethics very often. I’m not a fundamentalist in any aspects of my life. My decisions are based on common sense. But it is always good to have a frame of reference and I agree 100% with its contents.

Let’s see what the AGDA code of Ethic says about contests:

  • AGDA discourages members from predatory pricing practices such as free pitching, loss leading and other pricing below break-even. Members should be aware that such practices will damage the economic viability of their business.
  • AGDA is unequivocally opposed to the unfair manipulation of designers with the aim of garnering unpaid work (commonly known as ‘free pitching’). Client practices which do damage to a member’s business are those that award projects or commissions on the basis of the commissioner’s acceptance of unpaid design submissions (eg. unpaid competitive tendering or speculative work).
  • A Member shall not take part in any design competition if the terms of the competition are not approved by AGDA. AGDA bases its assessments on the International Competition Guidelines published by ICOGRADA (International Council of Graphic Design Associations). A Member or organiser of a competition can contact AGDA to review a competition’s terms and provide recommendations and/or approval.

This said, crowdsourcing websites break all ethical principles of our profession once and again. They buy designers’ ethics with promises of “easy” money. They sell lots and lots of low quality “fruit” to the clients. And in the meantime, they are filling their pockets at the expense of your dreams.

Sergio OrdoƱez Suanez
[email protected]

Hi there, I'm webmaster, designer and digital content creator of everything you see at SOSFactory. I love sharing my limited knowledge as more experienced designers did when I was a newbie.

29 Comments
  • Jon
    Posted at 18:05h, 22 November Reply

    Hi Sergio,

    This issue is been out there for a long time and honestly I’m one of those who’s joining in this kind of crowdsourcing, the 4 reasons are:

    1. When I’m still starting in designing industry I used contest as a training ground to excel more in my real job.

    2. I’ve found it as one of good referenced to update and gain experienced for my career.

    3. I benefit some dollars when I won, knowing how’s your skills improved.

    4. Lastly if you maintained a quality work not quantity in the contest even that entry lose put it on your portfolio and eventually a real client will noticed that and will collaborate for a real work.

    My only conclusion here is contest should not be your long term goal in your career have your own business also as you notice my reasons for joining contest is just to get some benefits, these were the good side and I’m still leaving to others their own decision, opinions about this issue.

    God Bless,
    Jon

  • zedkin
    Posted at 22:24h, 22 November Reply

    Hola,
    Sinceramente no puedo dejar de estar de estar de acuerdo con lo que dices. He participado en este tipo de sitios por desconocimiento, pero al poco tiempo me lleve la sorpresa de que no era lo que yo pensaba. Malos briefs y feedbacks. Competencia desleal y baja calidad. Por lo tanto, por experiencia propia, no podria estar mas de acuerdo contigo.
    Excelente post.
    Zedkin

  • Jordan Klus
    Posted at 06:47h, 23 November Reply

    I reckon something truly interesting about your blog so I bookmarked .

  • Sergio Ordonez
    Posted at 16:09h, 25 November Reply

    @Jon: Did you consider some of the alternatives I listed?

  • Jon
    Posted at 17:48h, 25 November Reply

    Yes I consider a two alternatives one is “You can sell stock designs, sell tutorials or work like guest blogger” which in future I will really do this and the second is “Websites such as Elance, where clients choose a designer according to their budget and their portfolio. ItĀ“s not a panacea, but at least there are some guarantees.” I know another site like this but definitely will try also elance.

  • Jon
    Posted at 18:33h, 25 November Reply

    @sergio off the topic would you mind add some retweet button on your blog I find this site interesting…thanks!

  • Jon
    Posted at 18:36h, 25 November Reply

    oh sorry I didn’t notice on the top of title mostly their on the bottom after your done reading the topic šŸ™‚

  • Adriana
    Posted at 16:09h, 30 November Reply

    Muy buen articulo, estoy deacuerdo con todo.

  • Andrey
    Posted at 15:27h, 05 December Reply

    Lene is a great designer from what I remember. So if she wins 1 of 10, I really doubt she would have a need and desire to participate if there was follow up work in 50% of cases.

    Also, if the client will notice you there, he will try 99designs first anyway. Only time they notice you is when they want to invite you into their contest.

  • Alex
    Posted at 12:22h, 08 December Reply

    Como ya te comentĆ© en el Email, estoy de acuerdo con todo lo que dices, y entiendo lo de la Ć©tica. TambiĆ©n tienes que ponerte en la posiciĆ³n del que estĆ” empezando y quiere que sus trabajos generen dinero. Es fĆ”cil hablar de temas de apuntarse a ONGs y vender trabajos a familiares y empezar desde abajo, pero lo dificil es hacerlo.

    Si miramos a 99designs desde otro punto de vista que no sea el comercial, sinĆ³ el didĆ”ctico lo veo una pĆ”gina interesante. Ya que, como bien me dijiste estĆ” muy bien la idea de inventarte clientes ficticios, pero, al inventarte tĆŗ tus propios clientes siempre tenderĆ”s al mismo estilo de diseƱo.

    99designs, lo veo interesante como una pĆ”gina donde juegas con un mercado demasiado amplio y juegas con unos competidores NOVATOS y otros NO TAN NOVATOS. Y te preguntarĆ”s, ĀæNo entiendes mi mensaje?

    Si, claro que lo entiendo, pero yo no voy por el camino de la competiciĆ³n desleal y de paso por el camino de la moralidad. Simplemente veo 99designs como un sitio donde puedes aprender. Clientes tienes (ya no te los tienes que inventar tĆŗ), asĆ­ pues puedes ampliar tu portafolio, con clientes REALES que seguramente serĆ”n mĆ”s interesantes que los ficticios que te inventes tĆŗ.
    Por otra parte, si lo miramos del lado didĆ”ctico, claro que aprendes, la profesiĆ³n de diseƱador es mĆ”s que nada, ser una esponja, dentro de tu propio estilo, tienes que ser una esponja y empezar a absorber ideas de otros diseƱadores, del medio, de cualquier sitio, para luego, llevĆ”rtelas a tu lado y usarlas a tu favor. 99designs ofrece lo que tĆŗ estas contando, un sucio juego de diseƱadores que el beneficiario total es la pĆ”gina, pero, eso es desde el punto de vista de un diseƱador afianzado como eres tĆŗ.

    Te expongo mi caso, yo soy un estudiante de diseƱo grĆ”fico y en mi escuela, tenemos pocos proyectos que hacer, nos mandan pues como todo, cosas que a mi no me interesan, cosas que son muy fĆ”ciles, y al fin y al cabo, la Ćŗnica asignatura que vale la pena, “proyectos” que es donde de verdad diseƱas, solo haces 3 proyectos en cada trimestre, cosa que veo, si te interesa este mundo, ir a paso de tortuga.
    Para gente como yo, que no tienes ni medios, ni dinero, una buena pƔgina es 99designs, ya que yo personalmente la utilizo para tener clientes (y no tener que inventarmelos) y intentar diseƱar algo que al cliente le pueda parecer interesante.
    Claro que es un timo si lo miramos desde el punto de vista del diseƱador como profesiĆ³n, pero, como estudiante de diseƱo, me lleva a poder meterme en mĆ”s proyectos de los que realmente tengo que hacer en el colegio, avanzar en mis conocimientos sobre los programas y SUPERARME para poder competir con la gente de ahĆ­ dentro, y a lo mejor, de casualidad o por que el destino lo quiere asĆ­, algĆŗn dĆ­a gane algĆŗn concurso de esos, pero realmente, no es mi meta.

    Por eso pienso que:

    – Usar 99designs como pĆ”gina didĆ”ctica y como entrenamiento, estĆ” bien.
    – Usar 99designs como pĆ”gina donde afianzar tu negocio, estĆ” mal, muy mal.

    Pero es que creo yo, que cualquier diseƱador que haya estado ahƭ, y haya participado en mƔs de un proyecto, se habrƔ dado cuenta que no merece la pena trabajar ahƭ.

    Pero para un estudiante, como es mi caso, que realmente lo que quiero es tener clientes no ficticios, y poder ver el trabajo de otros, en base al mismo proyecto que el mio, para aprender de ellos, si que merece la pena pasarse por ahĆ­.

    como digo es mi opiniĆ³n y seguramente tu difieras de ella, pero hoy por hoy lo veo asĆ­, seguramente, en un futuro cuando tenga mi trabajo, estarĆ© en tu misma posiciĆ³n, pero como dije antes, no creo que 99designs sea malo si se usa como algo didĆ”ctico, a mi personalmente me hacen un favor.

    Sigue con el blog Sergio que lo sigo desde hace aƱos šŸ˜€

    • Sergio Ordonez
      Posted at 13:59h, 08 December Reply

      Hola Alex, en primer lugar darte las gracias por tu opiniĆ³n, por supuesto que eres bienvenido y es apreciada, aunque no coincidamos.

      Ahora dƩjame hacer algunas puntualizaciones:

      – ĀæAlguien que no te va a pagar puede ser considerado cliente?
      – ĀæPuestos a trabajar gratis, no es mejor hacerlo para alguien que lo necesite o que conozcas?
      – Absolutamente todos hemos empezado desde abajo (soy sergitosuanez en este post de 2004), requiere mucho esfuerzo pero si otros pudieron tĆŗ tambiĆ©n puedes. AcĆ©ptalo cuanto antes y comienza tu batalla, pero elige bien donde luchas porque la energĆ­a es limitada.
      – ĀæCuĆ”nto dinero crees que puedes generar en ese sitio? Haz una estimaciĆ³n y despuĆ©s de un mes compĆ”ralo con tus ingresos reales. En mis comienzos y en mi peor mes siempre generĆ© mĆ”s de 700ā‚¬/mes (alrededor de 1.000 US$) buscĆ”ndo clientes por mi cuenta y seguramente mucho peor preparado que tĆŗ, no tengo estudios de diseƱo
      – ĀæEstĆ”s aprendiendo una metodologĆ­a del diseƱo? Tratar con clientes te ayuda a saber a tratar con la gente, pero es que en 99designs no tratas con el cliente, entonces, ĀæquĆ© estĆ”s aprendiendo?
      – No tengas prisa por aprender lo cruel que puede llegar a ser esta industria, es lo que 99designs te va a enseƱar
      – A poco que trabajes coincidirĆ”s conmigo en que un cliente real nunca serĆ” mĆ”s interesante ni divertido que uno ficticio, sobre todo cuando empiezas ya que el cliente tiende a pensar que sabe mucho mĆ”s de diseƱo que tĆŗ y te impone limitaciones a veces ridĆ­culas
      – Cualquier comunidad de arte (gratuita) ofrece mĆ”s posibilidades de aprendizaje que 99designs. Por ejemplo

      Entiendes que Ć©ticamente no estĆ” bien, entiendes que se estĆ”n aprovechando de tu trabajo, entiendes que no es un negocio rentable… pero aĆŗn asĆ­ sigues pensando que es algo bueno.

      Yo me harĆ­a la siguiente pregunta: ĀæNo estarĆ”s confundiendo lo bueno con lo cĆ³modo?

      En cualquier caso pĆ”sate por aquĆ­ dentro de un mes y nos comentas tu experiencia šŸ™‚

      Saludos y suerte!

  • Adrius
    Posted at 01:45h, 12 December Reply

    Yo no soy profesinal del diseƱo, ni nobel siquiera… pero lo serĆ© algĆŗn dia y desde ya te agradezco este post y toda esta informaciĆ³n que aportas, me gusta tu Ć©tica y tu forma de ver las cosas. Gracias por este Blog

  • jango.banana
    Posted at 10:27h, 24 December Reply

    I must say something here, although my English is now quite so good.

    Thanks to ‘Google Translate’ who helped me catch the conversation between Alex and Sergio.

    Thank you Sergio for, roughly said, opening my eyes.
    I’ve been designing on 99designs for a month or two now. And guess how much I’ve earned?

    0 $

    But in some point i do agree with Alex. sites like 99designs do FORCE you to learn, to stay in touch and to improve day by day.

    I am certain about one thing. If i’d have an alternative way to POTENTIALLY earn money, i would gladly abandon 99 designs.

    Once again, thanks Sergio!
    ——————————————————————————————————————-
    Not to forget, i will be posting one of my recent designs on your Facebook page so, please, if isn’t hard for you, comment it and rate it.
    ——————————————————————————————————————-

    You are a good man Sergio. THANKS.

  • Indichinho
    Posted at 13:01h, 01 February Reply

    Estoy totalmente de acuerdo con el post.

    Soy continuo aprendiz de esta profesiĆ³n aunque no me gano la vida de ello, pues empecĆ© estudiando otra cosa y una vez encontrado trabajo estable me he dado cuenta que lo que me gusta es esto … y es muy difĆ­cil lanzarse al vacĆ­o tal y como estĆ”n los puestos de trabajo (sobre todo en EspaƱa) como para dejar un puesto estable.

    Cuando estaba empezando en esto del diseƱo me topƩ con 12designer, otra de las pƔginas de las que aquƭ se comentan y he tardado 2 diseƱos/proyectos para darme cuenta que esta pƔginas solo son beneficiosas para el propietario de la pƔgina, y por el contrario tenemos a los diseƱadores, aprendices o meros aficionados y al cliente.

    El diseƱador, como ya he dicho suele ser aficionado pues los trabajos suelen ser de baja calidad, casi sin ideas y que se encuentra en una lucha encarnizada entre colegas para que al final no sepas nunca lo que quiere el cliente.

    El cliente, no suelen dar muchas pistas de lo que requieren pero sin embargo buscan gran calidad en su marca. Pues es imposible encontrarte buenos diseƱadores, pues ademƔs de ser muy muy muy mal pagado (al menos en 12designer), no sabes si al final cobrarƔs ni siendo el ganador. Y que yo sepa, a nadie le gusta malgastar su tiempo por amor al arte y que otros se lucren con tu trabajo.

    Soy totalmente partidario de crear blogĀ“s como herramienta de aprendizaje, sin embargo no estoy de acuerdo con trabajar con amigos.

    • Sergio Ordonez
      Posted at 16:11h, 04 February Reply

      Muchas gracias por compartir tu experiencia šŸ™‚

  • Mcl_antunes
    Posted at 01:07h, 18 March Reply

    Loved some of the alternatives… as i’m starting my carrier, it’s always good hear form people that are in the marketing and post them experience….tks

  • antonjorch
    Posted at 15:49h, 31 March Reply

    Excelente articulo Sergio desde hace un buen tiempo llevo diciƩndole a una amiga que se deje de estos concursos pero al parecer no entiende mis bases y hoy encontrƩ este articulo y se lo he enviado espero tener suerte esta vez, siempre he concordado contigo acerca de este tipo de concursos.

    por cierto lo publique en mi blog, tranquilo que coloque la fuente y el link que los redirige hacia aca, saludos desde venezuela!

  • Alejandro Yanaculis
    Posted at 18:26h, 08 April Reply

    You should really change the name of the article cause it’s totally misleading. I was wondering why there was a link to it from the No!Spec Facebook page and was ready to bite your head off, until I actually read the post.

    I really couldn’t agree more with what you say. As a web designer for over 10 years, I have had my fair share of bad experiences. Just today a prospective client asked me if I could do a mockup of his website before deciding to work with me. I flat out told him no because, though in a smaller scale, it’s the exact same thing as competing in crowd-sourcing sites.

    Besides, and let this be a warning to all novice designers, when a client asks you for spec work, it’s best to avoid him/her unless you are loaded with money, don’t care working for free or are just a masochist. Your work should stand for itself and, believe me, experience will come.

    • Sergio Ordonez
      Posted at 20:44h, 08 April Reply

      Hi Alejandro, I think a bit of irony doesn’t hurt. The tittle is the reason why you read the article, so goal accomplished.

      I’m glad you agree with the content šŸ™‚

  • Faizan
    Posted at 11:04h, 11 May Reply

    Hi Sergio,
    I am Newbie in the field of graphics and i do most of my work for free which is not the best practice i think.But i can’t find work for where i go asking for money they never return my calls,I m kinda Newbie so i guess my work is not up to the level of commercialization.Kindly Guide me on how to Start my graphics designing Career.i have the skills of graphics designing and also web designing.but lack the starting guidelines.
    Thanks for your Concern.

    • Sergio Ordonez
      Posted at 15:18h, 11 May Reply

      Faizan, not sure how developed your skills are, neither what are your areas of expertise. My suggestion is:

      1.- Build a portfolio website.
      2.- Fill it with good samples.
      3.- Spread the word: facebook, youtube, twitter, art communities, blog…

      It’s time consuming and requires patience, but it’s the only way to grow… otherwise you always will be in the starting point.

      I suggest using http://www.webhostingtalk.com forums, the payment won’t be too high but will be a good training.

      Cheers!

  • Marcos
    Posted at 18:58h, 25 August Reply

    Hola Sergio llegue a este post buscando algo de informacion, mi pregunta puntualmente es, que pasa si yo diseƱo algo, no gana el contest, pero yo sigo siendo el autor del diseƱo, osea puedo venderlo en otra situcion, por ejemplo a otro cliente mio, o venderlo por medio de internet a alguien que le guste, esto se puede hacer?
    Gracias y saludos, realmente tu blog tiene muy buena informacion

  • julio
    Posted at 04:00h, 24 February Reply

    Hola Sergio te tengo en mi lista de favoritos en deviantart este es mi linkĀ 
    http://julioodin.deviantart.com/Ā he aprendido mucho de tus tutoriales tambien compre uno de ellos en PSD+tuts soy diseƱador grafico y tambien hice un diplomado de diseƱo de paginas web, me gradue el aƱo pasado y si chekas en DA el logo de Magic Box es la compaƱia que estoy creando, me parecio interesante este articulo de hecho he partcipado para algunos concursos tanto en DA como Talenthouse, creo que en mi caso personal ademas de el dinero que ayuda un poco esta el reconocimiento ante gente de todo el mundo en este tipo de sitios, pero es cierto que uno invierte tiempo y esfuerzo donde el sitio de valora con tu trabajo y ese tiempo creativo puede ser mejor utilizado en crear verdaderamente una marca de tu trabajo y ponerlo en accion, de hecho he trabajado en ventas alrededor de 10 aƱos y decidi crear algo donde puedo tener esa satisfaccion que tu comentas, donde uno pone las reglas, en este momento estoy creando mi portafolio y estoy trabajando en mi primer trabajo como independiente y mi primera pagina web, se que es un poco dificil empezar y construir una reputacion pero lo principal es creer en lo que haces y lo demas vendra por si solo.

    • Sergio Ordonez
      Posted at 00:14h, 16 March Reply

      Hola Julio, muchos Ć”nimos, a la larga no tengas duda de que es el Ćŗnico camino. Suerte!

  • Efe Buyuran
    Posted at 18:57h, 20 April Reply

    This is an amazing post. I couldn’t agree more!

  • Raksodsgn
    Posted at 23:07h, 03 May Reply

    Wouw brother no sabia que existen paginas de este tipo.
    reciĆ©n me engancho a tu blog (aun que ya sabia de tus excelentes trabajos), y me estĆ”s ayudando mucho!, yo soy un diseƱador que ya esta aburrido de trabajar Ā en una agencia (siempre lo mismo mediocridad) y que quiere desarrollarse mas en el area de la ilustraciĆ³n, pero claro siempre esta el temor a fracasar y por ende uno no se lanza, bueno aparte de las deudas que lo enganchan a uno a no dejar el trabajo. Pero en cada post tuyo que leo, me da mas ideas, cosas que ni se cruzaron por la cabeza y que las estoy tomando en cuenta, para por fin darle al 100% a mi proyecto.
    De verdad gracias!
    Salu2s desde PerĆŗ.
    Oscar Quintero (raksodsgn)

  • Janlorie_29
    Posted at 01:28h, 03 June Reply

    Sergio,

    I totally agree with you. I quit joining contests in 99designs.Ā 

  • disqus_yoUQin0Wkp
    Posted at 00:11h, 13 October Reply

    Valuable info everywhere, thank you.
    Why GraphicRiver, when some sites pay 10 times more?

Post A Comment

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.